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Hello and welcome to The Bearded Mystic's Oneness Conversations, and I'm joined here today with Swami Sarvapriyananda Ji, , in my opinion, one of the best Advaita Vedanta teachers that we have today, and a personal favourite of mine.
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Swami Sarvapriyananda Ji has been a minister and spiritual leader of the Vedanta Society of New York since January 2017.
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He joined the Ramakrishna Mutt in 1994 and received sannyas in 2004.
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Swami Sarvapriyananda Ji is a well known speaker on Vedanta and his talks are extremely popular globally via the internet.
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Swami Ji has engaged in dialogue with many eminent thinkers such as Deepak Chopra, Rupert Spira, Bernardo Kastrup, Rick Archer, David Chalmers and the legendary Sam Harris.
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Uh, so Swamiji, welcome to the Bearded Mystic Podcast.
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Wonderful to have you.
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Thank you, Rahul.
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Thank you for having me.
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Thank
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forward to our conversation.
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you.
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Thank you.
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So I'm going to go for a deep question.
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Right.
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, is what is Brahm Gyan?
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I remember hearing in one of your talks, you mentioned how, uh, you translated it or interpreted it as insights into Brahman.
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Could you expand over that?
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So what is Brahm Gyan and,
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Brahma Gyan, from the Advaita Vedanta perspective, the straight answer would be Brahma Gyan is the knowledge of the form, I am Brahman.
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In Sanskrit, Aham Brahmasmi.
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And that's Brahma Gyan.
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Brahma means the ultimate reality, or Brahman, or Brahma.
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Um, and Gyan just means knowledge.
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Now, um, then if you dive deep into it, it's, uh, it's very deep, very profound.
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Basically, the idea is that there is an, actually there is an ultimate reality in this universe.
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And that's not so controversial because I think even most reductive materials scientists also would say, you know, sure there is this reality and that reality is matter and energy and time and space.
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But what Advaita Vedanta considers to be reality, um, is that you are that reality.
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That's the core of, uh, Advaita Vedanta.
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Um, now, on the face of it, I am that ultimate reality.
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I would prefer it, that it is right, but it doesn't seem so.
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See, when we look at ourselves, we see ourselves as a very small being.
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Here I am, this body, this personality.
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One among millions and millions of, um, uh, you know, living beings, maybe billions of human beings and billions and billions of other living beings.
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Also, so small, I'm just this one vanishingly insignificant corner of a tremendously vast universe.
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The more cosmology advances, the more we, it seems the boundaries are being pushed ever further back.
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And if you consider time, we seem to be a speck of, you know, momentary existence in an endless ocean of time.
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So whether it's in object, individual, um, as an individual being, or in the vastness of space, or in the eternity of time, we seem to be extremely limited.
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And erm our lives, we're not very clear what the point of it all is, and it seems to be vanishingly small and insignificant.
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So that's what, that's the starting point.
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That's what we naturally feel when we look around the world and look at ourselves, whoever we are, wherever we are.
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And Advaita Vedanta reverses that.
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It's very radical.
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It says that, no, you are actually not this, just this limited body and mind.
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You are something much more profound, extraordinarily deep.
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You are this limitless existence consciousness bliss.
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So, not that you are a tiny insignificant corner of the universe.
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Rather, all of space is actually an appearance in you, as you might have experience in a dream universe, for example.
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When you wake up from a dream universe, you feel, Oh, all the world that I saw in there, it's just a dream.
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So therefore, all of it was, in a sense, imagined in my mind.
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Something like that.
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All of what we consider to be physical space is actually in you.
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You are not in space.
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Space is in you, as you, the real you.
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Um, time.
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You are not a tiny, you know, instant in time, a body which is born and dies within a few years.
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No, rather time also is an appearance in you.
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You are, if I can say, more eternal than time itself.
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And all of this is you already.
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It's not something that has to be accomplished.
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It's always has been a fact.
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So that's the, uh, that's the real nature of, uh, the self, who we really are according to Advaita Vedanta.
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Now obviously we'll say that, that just sounds crazy, I don't know any bit of it.
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Yes, so I don't know any bit of it, that doesn't, it doesn't seem to be my experience at all.
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That's where Brahma Gyan comes in.
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There is this ultimate reality, you are this ultimate reality, but yes, you say that you don't know it, you don't feel it to be true, you don't experience it.
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So to know it and to finally be able to claim that, yes, it's a fact.
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It's the greatest of all facts.
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And that takes you beyond all suffering.
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The point also of all of this life, it takes you beyond all suffering.
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So that's Brahma Gyan.
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Brahma Gyan is the realization of my true nature.
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That true nature is infinite existence, consciousness, bliss.
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And it is to be accomplished.
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And then the realization of that is the purpose of life.
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Life, the goal of life, and it has to be accomplished through knowledge, and this knowledge is what Advaita Vedanta, uh, gives us.
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Yeah, I can add something here just that comes to my mind right now.
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You know, I was just thinking, philosophy has, broadly speaking, these three branches.
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One is, um, What's real?
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What's true?
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And I just spoke about ultimate reality.
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Is this matter energy ultimately real?
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Is God ultimately real?
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Or is it some absolute like Brahman?
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Is that ultimately real?
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So what's real?
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What's true here?
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And that's called metaphysics.
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A new name for that is ontology, ontos being, being itself.
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Then, next question that should come up logically is how do you know all this?
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So, the question about knowledge, epistemology, epistemology studies knowledge.
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How do we get knowledge of anything?
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I mean worldly stuff, spiritual stuff, religious stuff, scientific stuff.
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And then there is another branch of philosophy which is, which used to be like a whole different areas of study like aesthetics, you know, art and beauty, ethics.
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Um, which is morality.
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Now there is a new term, axiology, sort of to go along with, I guess, ontology and epistemology.
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Axiology goes with values.
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It could be aesthetic values, it could be moral, ethical values.
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So what's the point of it all?
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What's good?
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What's right?
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What's wrong?
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All of these three questions, um, three great questions of philosophy.
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What's real?
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How do you know?
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And what's the point of it all?
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What's right?
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Wrong?
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What's valuable?
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These three questions, notice how Brahman, the word which you used, is Advaita Vedanta's answer to all three questions.
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What's real?
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Ontologically, Brahman as existence is real.
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What's, uh, how do we know anything at all?
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Chit, Brahman as consciousness, makes all knowledge possible.
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It's not a dead existence, it's a shining existence.
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And, what's the point of it all?
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Brahman as Ananda, as bliss, fulfilment, completion, wholeness, that's the point of it all.
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So it just struck me, maybe just last year or something, staring at us in the face, what the deepest questions of humanity, fundamental, the deepest questions of philosophy, and here is one term, Brahman, as you said, which breaks out into Sat, Chit, Ananda, it's the same thing.
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They are not three aspects, they are just the same thing, but they answer the three greatest questions of philosophy.
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So the answer to our deepest questions is Brahman.
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Beautiful, and how did you come up with the term insights into Brahman?
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I found that to be beautiful because a lot of people translate Brahm Gyan as like God knowledge or true knowledge or divine knowledge, but you said insights into Brahman.
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Was that something you coined or you heard somewhere?
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I don't know where I said that, but that would be true.
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Knowledge of Brahman is technically alright.
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It needs to be qualified.
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God knowledge is also technically alright, but again it needs to be qualified a lot.
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What do you mean by God?
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What exactly do you mean by God knowledge?
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Insight into our real nature is insight into Brahman.
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You know, that would be about right.
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I don't know where I said it.
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think it might have been the, um, the Jnana Yoga, um, talk that you did, Swami Vivekananda Ji's Jnana Yoga,
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yes.
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Um, insights, well, technically from Advaita Vedanta, it would, they would be fine if you called it, The insight into Brahman and the nature of that insight would be, I am Brahman.
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That's the core of Brahma Gyana.
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You have a little bit of an understanding this way, a new revelation that way, that's not Brahma Gyana.
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That's alright, that's spiritual progress, that's spiritual insights, but the essence of Brahma Gyana is, I am Brahman.
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That realization should become as natural as it is for me to think and say and behave as I am Sarvapriyananda right now.
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It should be as natural as that.
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And as effortless, and as real, or more than that, even I am Sarvapriyananda is an assumed thing, you know, it's been, it's a name that's been given to me, uh, when I became a monk, and so how natural that has become to me, it should be more natural than that.
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Beautiful, beautiful.
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Um, Swamiji, uh, one of the questions, I hear a lot, and I like to ask you is, you know, Swami Vivekananda Ji's question to Sri Ramakrishna ji, which was, you know, I want to see God and how can I make this a reality in my day to day life, in the, you know, in the mundaneness of life and also in the extraordinariness of life?
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How can I see God?
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Yes, So can we see God?
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And how can we see God?
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Why do I need to see God also, if you ask that question?
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So, uh, notice how these are epistemological questions, and the last one, why do I need to see God, is, uh, an axiological or a question about value or point of it all.
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So, can we see God?
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Yes! The straight answer would be yes! And that's the answer not only of Sri Ramakrishna to Swami Vivekananda, but the answer of all mystics! of all religions throughout all of known history or even prehistory, I would say.
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There have been mystics who have had access, who have claimed access, and I think with very good reason, to the ultimate nature of things.
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The theistic religions would say seeing God or having a God experience, whereas non theistic religions like Taoism or Buddhism would say an insight into the ultimate nature of things, you know, Bodhi, yes.
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So it is possible.
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And, uh, in this day and age, I think Vivekananda stressed it, that was a very crucial question, it's an empirical question, you see.
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He didn't go around asking people, Vivekananda, Narendra Nath, that late 19th century, Calcutta.
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He didn't go around asking teachers and religious preachers, do you believe in God, why should I believe in God, or does God exist?
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Not like that.
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His answer was much more straightforward.
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Can I see God?
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Have you seen God?
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Seen need not literally mean that these eyes, even that will do, but a genuine God experience which you would agree that yes, it is a God experience.
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So yes, there have been genuine mystical experiences all throughout history in all religions, and that, I think that should be taken seriously.
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Now, to qualify that.
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In Advaita Vedanta, to relate it to a question about how to have that in mundane life and everyday life, in extraordinary life and ordinary life.
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Let's take a deep dive into Advaita Vedanta.
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Advaita Vedanta would, um, ask us to refine our answer, because seeing God in itself, what does it mean?
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From an Advaitic perspective, yes, it is the same ultimate, if it's a genuine mystic experience of God, It's the same ultimate reality, Brahman, but with a particular name and form, um, particular conception, particular cultural filter, then only you say, I have had a God experience or I am seeing God, for example.
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Um, the bare truth in itself, Brahman as it is, is not something that you see or you would even want to see.
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It's, it's you.
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It's limitless being.
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So, it's not an object.
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That's why you cannot see it, hear it, smell it, taste it.
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We might say, yeah, yeah, I understand that, but at least we can conceive of it or grasp it with the mind or the intellect.
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Well, you cannot.
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It's supposed to be beyond all thought, beyond all conception, beyond all ideas, so therefore beyond mind and intellect.
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It is supposed to be beyond language, so language cannot refer to it directly, though we may use words, Brahman, Atman, the ultimate reality, whatever we use.
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It does not directly refer to it.
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So yes, from an Advaitic perspective then, God realization or God vision would mean the realization that I am that limitless existence.
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I am Brahman.
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And that is actually much more valuable.
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Then any kind of God experience, mystical experience, anything that comes and goes, once you realize you are Brahman, it's done.
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It can never go away.
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In fact, you realize you always were Brahman, whereas a mystical experience can come and go.
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The very fact that we are seeking mystical experiences immediately means that we are not having mystical experiences right now.
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So it is something that's going to start.
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And if you look at the lives of the mystics, they were extraordinarily life transforming, powerful experiences, but they are all Um, fleeting, they came and they went and probably the human nervous system cannot withstand that kind of an upsurge for a long period of time.
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Sri Ramakrishna would say that the highest samadhi if you go into it and you don't come out of it, then the body will last up to 21 days and the body will die.
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Um, now Advaita Vedanta will say this ultimate reality Brahman and the realization that I am Brahman is continuously available to us in mundane experience.
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Let me back up a little and talk about another thing that I find helpful.
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Three paradigms of spiritual life.
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There is a paradigm which is a faith based paradigm.
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In the US, religion is always faith.
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Faith means you believe in something, and that's all right, that's fine, because that has been the majority of spiritual approaches.
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I'm distinguishing spirituality from mass conventional religion, just to narrow it down to what we are talking about here.
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There also, there's a faith based approach, what is called bhakti in Indian traditions, devotion, love of God.
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And there we are taught that God exists.
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And how do we know?
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Because our tradition tells us, the holy books tell us, the enlightened masters tell us, on basis of belief.
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We might say we have good reasons to believe, that's good, but still it is belief.
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It's quite distinct from I know.
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I believe is always distinct from I know.
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Then, the problem with that, of course, is, as you mentioned, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett, and Richard Dawkins, and you don't need cutting edge atheists for that.
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Even the masses of people, including those who believe, will always have some kind of doubt about it.
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I mean, they may believe for cultural reasons, but they might not be willing to stake their lives on it.
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So, notice there is a difference between verbal faith and actual faith.
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Verbal faith is, I ascent, I belong to a doctrine, a church or something, and I ascribe to the belief system.
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But in my life it's not reflected all that much.
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I just go on being the same person.
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So I really, it's not like I believe, for example, there's going to be lunch at noon.
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If I really believe that, I'll go to the dining hall at room and wait for lunch.
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It's an actual belief and there you see that it's different from what most people say when we say we believe in God, they don't actually do anything about it in their daily lives except maybe go turn up for a religious talk or a festival or something.
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So it can be doubted, that's that's my point, this faith based spiritual paradigm.
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There comes the God experience, what you'd asked.
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Can I see God?
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Can I experience God?
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This is a primarily an empirical age where the hold of authority and belief, the hold has been loosened.
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So there are many, many people who either casually belong to a religion or just they're openly not religious.
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So empirical, we ask for empirical experience and evidence and there comes in all the mystical traditions.
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Thanks.
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Of all world religions, they all have these mystical traditions, not just because the holy books said so, not just because our religion teaches us or our culture teaches us, I've actually seen, and, or, at least I would like to see and I'm on the path to seeing.
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That is the mystical experience paradigm of God realization.
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Um, there, and that's why Vivekananda asked this and that's why it's so, so catchy today.
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Remember, when Vivekananda came to this country in the late 19th century, he, he pushed this particular way of spirituality, this empirical God experience way.
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And so he says, religion is realization.
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It's not believing in some doctrines.
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And it is no coincidence that the first book he translated and published here, and commented upon, is called, was Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.
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The Raja Yoga, his classic book, Raja Yoga, published from, in fact, from right here from New York.
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There, the paradigm is, you sit in this way, asana, you control your breath, life forces in this way, pranayama, and of course on a basis of ethical practices, yama and niyama, and then you focus, withdraw your senses from the external world, turn inwards, Focus, that is dharana, and then that deepens into meditation, dhyana, and that will hopefully deepen into samadhi.
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And these samadhis are of various kinds, and they can give you extraordinary experiences.
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As Vivekananda says, if I have an immortal soul, I should be able to feel it.
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If God exists, I should be able to see God.
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And these mystical experiences, experienced through meditation, will give me proof that yes, I have seen God.
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Now, then there's a problem here.
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Um, I'm working my way back to your question.
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How do I experience God in my mundane life?
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But there's a problem here.
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These experiences are by definition extraordinary.
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They are rare, extremely rare, and by all accounts they are hard to get, and we can also be quite mistaken about it.
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There is a very genuine pathology of, uh, religion, um, so, always, the problem with these is they are all subject to doubt, just as, faith is subject to doubt, atheism and skepticism.