The Bearded Mystic's Oneness Conversations with Sunny Sharma

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Hello and welcome to Oneness Conversations with the Bearded Mystic. And today our guest is Sunny Sharma, who is a great YouTuber if you've not checked his channel out. It'll be in the video description and show notes, he's someone that talks about non-duality in a very simple and yet deep way. And we are going to understand a lot more about non-duality. So welcome to the show, Sunny. Nice to see I have a little bit of a beard today, Uh, good. Good, good, good. Um, you, you are, um, you, you've joined the Bearded Mystic group. not as glorious as yours, but. Uh oh, thank you. Thank you. I take the compliment. So yeah obviously I, I actually admire you as a content creator. You have a course and as well as an academy and a YouTube channel. I dunno if you have anything else, but, how do you come up with your ideas every day for the YouTube channel and how do you maintain that interest in the channel without getting bogged down with the grind, so to speak? Yeah. Um, I think, you know, when we do something that we're truly passionate about and like with the work that I do, honestly, it really feels like if I was doing anything else, it would be a waste of my life. So in that way, I feel like that passion is what generates all those, all that creativity. I remember when I was just starting my channel, I really did feel that I, I used to think that. How much can I possibly talk about something like, or, or like these spiritual matters. But I feel that when we commit to something like the creativity follows, and so whenever, whenever an idea for a talk or anything like that comes to mind, um, that is usually what I share. Yeah. I let it be natural. It's like I try to, like I used to before plan a lot more, but I think as, as I've, um, become more experienced with the whole video creation thing, but, and also as I've grown in my own spiritual practice, I just, I, I'll maybe have like a big theme or something and then I'll let it be spontaneous from there. Nice, so before, did you used to have it like kind of scripted and kind of, uh, or Yeah. In the. planned? Yeah. Yeah. In the very beginning, I think the first couple of videos that I ever made, they were literally, like, I used to write every single word down and I used to read it off of the script, you know, little by little. wow, And I think that's how everybody has to start eventually, you know, until you do start getting comfortable with speaking to a camera or comfortable with just, just expressing your ideas. Like even when you're alone in your room. yes, yes, yes, yes., that's interesting. And I, I did watch a video that was an about your story and I thought that was rather interesting. So tell me that journey of, uh, like going away from, and I think everyone has a similar story, like, I felt I could relate to you because I was like, yeah, I was really into that self-help stuff. And then it, when it came to non-duality, that kind of like slipped away, like as if I wasn't interested anymore in that. And whenever I heard it, I used to maybe like cringe a little. But how did you find that journey? And like what, what was the trigger moment where you're like, I'm not looking back at this. The path that I found now is, um, what I need right now? I mean, the future is something we, we can't anticipate, but right now, could you go into that a bit more Like the turning point from self-help self-inquiry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, you know, for everybody, I think these teachings, um, even if it is just the very beginning, self-help teachings, like they're supposed to help you grow and then outgrow those teachings, like every teaching's role is to. At first, when it comes into your experience, experience, it's like out of your reach, right? And it's like not fully understood and we have to grasp at it, meaning like we have to grow into it. And if it does its job, then it helps us outgrow it. And then naturally, the next teaching, which is sort of like of a higher frequency or a higher paradigm call it, then that makes its way into our experience. So that was the way with me, you know, like when the self-help teaching came into my experience, it was very necessary for me because at that time I was very, uh, sort of like a, a very weak ego, you know? That's what I had the way I like to explain it. Very insecure, very fearful con, you know, constantly afraid of the future. And I really wanted to change my life. And so of course at, at that point, if, if like self-inquiry came into my experience, I wouldn't even be receptive to it because my focus was, I wanna change my life. You know, I wanna change my, myself, my body, my my, this and that. So. The self-help teaching made its way into my life, and I explored it for many years. And when I started my YouTube channel, that's really what I used to talk about more just like manifestation and self-help beginner spirituality. But yeah, as I started to go down that path and started to change my experience and started to experience things that I wanted and even started to change my own, um, beliefs about myself, and went from like a weak, insecure person to a more, I would say, like a powerful and confident person. So I, I went through that transition and I think that it, for most of us, we do have to go through that, where we go from like the weak ego to a strong ego, but then there comes a time if we're lucky, that we start to realize that no matter how much I change myself and work on myself, no matter how much I change my surroundings. I still don't feel fulfilled. So that was the turning point. You know, when it came to, like, when I came to self-enquiry, I was going through that phase where I was seeing that no matter what I do, no matter what experience I have, uh, no matter how much I change myself and growing to the person I wanted to be before I, I am still always restless. Mm-Hmm. always insecure to whatever degree. Even though now it's masked in an outer confidence, inwardly, I'm still insecure and fearful, always worried about like, oh, all the things I have achieved, maybe taken away. You know, what does the future hold? So I was just like noticing then, Hey man, like what does the mind want then? Because the mind says it wants all these things and it wants to become this and that. But then when it becomes those things. It, it just wants something else and it still never feels good. And then I also started to notice in my peer group, you know, um, and also people that I looked up to in business and just, you know, in pop popular culture, uh, nobody's ever satisfied. So that, that really got me interested in like, what is, what is this? Then luckily enough, you know, that's when I had, um, a few months back I had signed up for, uh, like a few months back before I was going through this phase. I had signed up for a four day meditation retreat. mm-Hmm. Um, and like, so this meditation retreat was just about to come. It was like a a the next weekend and for some reason, um, I got drawn to the book who am I? on Amazon. I don't even know how I found it, honestly, but I just saw it on Amazon and I ordered that and I am that together. I. And I didn't touch, I am that for a few months, but like the book who Am I? I took it with me to that meditation retreat and I, and I read it. That was the big turning point for me because for the first time when I read that book, the words of Ramana Maharshi, for the first time, they turned me away from focusing on experience to that which focuses right? They turned me to inward to myself. And so when I read the teaching in that book, that's what made me really curious about, okay, what am I? I started to, because in that book he, he shared like, you know, you are, you are not the mind, you are not the body. You are not what you take yourself to be. And so like that lit me up on fire. And from that point onwards, my focus was no longer just about what I can change in my experience and even who I can become personally because I started to see that, like that is always a changeful experience. I started to grow interested in. What is that? Which does not change. That was like spark that, uh, you know, has been lit ever since. So, yeah. wow. Because it's quite a dramatic shift from like, say, manifestation and law of attraction and all this stuff to Ramana Maharishi. I mean, they're at the opposite sides, the opposite side of the spectrum really. Um, where Ramana has really had that silent, which I grasp a lot from your talks by the way. Like there is this, um, this silence that's there in the background, even though you are speaking and Yes. Uh, but you can sense it. And I think that's the beauty of Ramana, and I think so did you feel like the, even though you, obviously you read his book, but did you feel that the energy of Ramana was working in the background as you were reading and, I, I mean, and we can say that that may be, that also may be like a mental, my, like a mind thing, but like, either way. Yeah. It, it totally felt, feels that way. You know, it felt like I, I felt very, very connected to him, and I felt like his love has embraced his power. Like, the words are one thing, but like the, the power in the words that, that felt very, very real. That's why I was very drawn. And then, you know, because I felt such great power and love in his words, I never doubted, like for me, I was more naive and like, you know, this is a obstacle sometimes with a very intelligent people when they come across this teaching, they have a hard time with it because they need to like, figure it out practically. And they, they, they doubt too much. Hmm. I had my fair share of doubts, but like, uh, what I like, what I really found beneficial in my journey is that because of that love and, uh, power that I felt in his words, I trusted his words more than I trusted my own doubts. Because also by that point, I had started to understand, even with the other spiritual teachings and self-help teachings, that like even those things don't make sense at first. And I had gotten a fair share of experience that like you have to practice the teaching even though you may not understand it, you have to do your best to practice it. And then the understanding makes its way into your experience. Like, so that's how, that's the same attitude that I kept with these words, but for sure, as you say, like I totally felt that connection, that love, that power. Wow, it's amazing. Um, how, so I currently, I'm writing an episode on the history of Advaita Vedanta and I actually wasn't too sure about using Ramana Maharshi because of the neo-Advaita movement that's kind of somewhat, kind of tarnished his name or attempted to tarnish the name. I don't think it can tarnish it, but, um, but I had to mention him like it was, uh, when I, when it came down to it, I was like, well, he has had a significant impact, not only, uh, in the West, but even in India. There's so many disciples I've come across and they, they can attest to his greatness. And I think, for someone that's, was largely rather silent, to have such an impact, is beautiful. And, and again, when you look at his picture, I mean, he's, there's a certain majesty to it that, even kings and emperors cannot emulate. I feel, He said that silence was his, the essence of his teaching. But you know, he spent his entire life in service, um, even to those who could not understand his silence. So for those, for, for them is, uh, he would give a lot of words too. You know, of course he was more, um, conservative with his words, very offering very few. But he, you know, if you read his teachings, there's plenty of conversations and, and, you know, uh, plenty of scripts where people have written down his, his dialogues with people, with members, uh, in his ashram who were maybe didn't understand the teaching to just be quiet. But like, again, uh, what I really resonated from his, even his instructions to those people is that like even the words he offers, he's not, he's usually not interested in just talking about concepts, like talking about the truth. He's just interested in pointing the disciple in words. So that always resonated with me deeply. And also that inspired. Me and, and also the way that, that I share the teaching is like on my channel and in the, all the work that I do, like I do my best to, I'm not so interested in the philosophy side of things. I'm interested in turning people inward, helping people turn away from what they see to the very fact of seeing, because I think that's the essence of practice and like the, and that that brings wisdom on its own. So, yeah. That's very interesting. So let me probe into that a bit more., when you talk about the seeing, how do you get someone who is totally kind of absorbed in their own mind, you know, the incessant chatter is there, how do you get them to see inward and get to that place of presence? I mean, do you find that it takes, uh, obviously there's a process. It may take them a bit longer, but how do you guide them to do that? Yeah. I mean, sometimes people will surprise you. You know, sometimes you may think that, oh, this person wouldn't get it. But like the, it just depends on your time, you know, when it's your time and that interest is there. The teaching finds you because you don't find the teaching, the teaching finds you. And it's like, if it's your time, then you, you know, you will go. It's all grace in that way. But, um, so yeah. How do we, how do we get someone to turn inward? Well, firstly, the interest has to be there from their own, um, side. If they're not interested and they're not genuinely curious, then no matter what, like you say, it's not going to help. You know? But like, if the interest is there and the curiosity is there, if the person has like, never, ever practiced meditation, Mm-Hmm. it's rare that this teaching will find them at that time, you know, because we find that, which, uh, is usually like to ease us into these teachings. I. Yes. seamless way that these teachings find themselves to us. Uh, I mean, they come to us, we find that which is appropriate for us. So it's, I mean, for, for me, I had to do a decent bit of meditation before I came to self-inquiry. But, um, so firstly, like if a person has never done any meditation, I think it's very, uh, appropriate first to just begin a simple meditation, which is like awareness of body sensation, where in the beginning, because our attention is so scattered and spilling into concepts incessantly, we have to harness that attention. We have to harness it. And so gather it away from going into thoughts to just one object. That could be the breath, that could be the body sensation, because through this practice, we learn to discern between attention. And thinking previously they're one and the same. We don't know the difference between the two. They're just like mixed. When we start to now take our attention away from thinking and just bring it to maybe breath or body sensation, we learn the art of just watching, not thinking and describing, but just watching. We start to become open and we start to notice that presence, which is simply there. So I think that in the beginning, for a person who's never practiced, meditation is more appropriate than something like self-enquiry, which will seem very subtle at the time. Once someone starts to get, um, more used to and more familiar with this type style of meditation, which is focus on an object, right? When you're focusing, you're not thinking. When you are, um, simply anchored, your attention is anchored in sensation or breath. There's no thought from there, it becomes possible. it's like instead of focusing on body sensation, so instead of watching body sensation, you become aware of the watching itself. So instead of be being aware of sensation, you become aware of awareness itself. So this is a little subtle, right? Because there's no object to hook your attention into. The attention itself becomes the, the, the object, the anchor. Right, right. So this is what we can call turning inward. You know, first we go in a simple way. We at least turn away from concepts, and we turn away from sense perceptions to, let's say breath or body sensation. We learn to just watch. This is one step of going inward. Then the next we, we turn away from even body sensation from any object we can know, and we become aware of the knowing itself. So it's like the subject being aware of itself rather than always being aware of this or that. We notice awareness itself. That is like what we refer to as the noticing. I am. Right. Wow, that's very beautiful. I mean, there's many ways. I Totally agree with your, the process and the way you've described it. and people call it many things like Rupert Spira, and I think Francis Lucille, they call it being aware of awareness or being aware of being aware. Um, uh, I tend to call it formless Awareness because there's no form attach to. J. Krishnamurti used to say when the observer becomes the observed. I mean, that, that was one of the first times I had the breakthrough of actually, oh yeah, I'm, there's some, the subject is, uh, you know, I'm observing my own self and not the self like Rahul, but what I cannot name or label it. It was astonishing. And yeah, so when you read, and I actually, I wanted to see if you agree with this now, do you ever go back to reading spiritual texts and do you see, but do you read it from awareness rather than like, Sunny or I, me reading it from Rahul? Do you read it from the awareness point of view and do you find that it opens, say, avenues which you never discovered before? Or, because Sunny is still gonna be kind of there in the background observing that, but yeah have, have you ever done that? And if so, you can express whatever you like on that. Yeah, and I mean perhaps we are like talking about the same experience in different ways, but the way that sometimes I like to see it as is, of course the act of reading is always personal, right? Like only you, you can only read as a person, but the entire experience that is currently appearing of a person reading something and thinking about it, that entire experience is appearing in your seeing. That experience comes and goes, you know, like none of those contents we can call me. I am that in which all it all comes and goes. I am that which sees the appearance and disappearance of that experience. So I would say like, um, and probably it's the same thing that you were describing by saying that, but yeah, like I say, uh, I see it in that way sometimes, and I feel that the way that I read things now, the way, the only way it has changed as opposed to how I used to read, is that now I'm not reading with an expectation that the next thing I read will do something for me or like, uh, that'll be the one big bang or something like that. Um, now I no longer read with expectation or, or desire for something. It's just because I'm genuinely interested and I enjoy it. And I find that that, um, allows you to be very receptive and open. To, to just, uh, the, the power of those words. So I love reading texts. I know you're, uh, you do videos on the Bhagavad-gita. Like that's one of my favorite texts. And I constantly resort it for, to, for, uh, guidance on just, you know, how to live on a day, on a day-to-day basis. Things like Ashtavakra Gita Teachings of Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj. Um, I love reading those texts, but now in a different way. And I feel like when you're just reading them out of pure interest and joy, the words, they have a greater power and you have a greater receptivity to them. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah, I think we're at the, we're talking about the same thing really. That's very interesting. I wanted to ask you, we've mentioned a few teachers already, can you explain the importance of the guru? And I'm not gonna ask if you see yourself as a guru, but, um, but we definitely seek help from each and every person. I think everyone is your guru in, in, a, in a realistic manner. But in terms of the spiritual guidance, how important is the guru in that process? yeah, yeah. Well, you know, to, I know you didn't ask the question, but I definitely do not see myself guru. I always tell like, look at me as like your, your spiritual friend on, on the path, and just if you can gain some benefit from the guidance I share, then wonderful. You know, I, I really like to be looked at in that regard because I don't, yeah. I, I don't like to be looked at as a, as that, because it comes with expectations itself. You know, I just say, Hey, be free of that. Just enjoy the, the, the teachings if they are valuing you. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, the importance of the guru is, is very great. Um. The greatest guru being the the inner guru. And I love the teaching by Nisargadatta Maharaj. You know, he says the inner guru is the only guru, but he takes form outside as many things. Maybe a formal teacher that you see in person, maybe another teacher's books that you read only and you never met them and they maybe passed away a long time ago. Or it may be your relatives or your, your spouse or, you know, like, so he says the inner guru takes shape and form as all of these things. And in that way, you, you are right when you say we are all in a way guru to, to everybody. Or it is better to say that everybody that I come across is a guru. Every experience and challenge that I come across is the my guru. And so once we start to really understand this and accept this. Then we can truly, like, rather than constantly resisting experience, resisting like challenges fighting against people, we can start to use all of that for our spiritual growth. That's like when we start to become receptive to the inner guru, Mm-Hmm. you know? Um, and outside in life we always live in this way, always seeing every experience that comes to us as a teacher. And inward in meditation we are like, um, sort of connecting with or becoming one with the inner inner guru. And I think once we, as we start to live in this way, then we, we are the most open, we're the most vulnerable to this understanding. Then it seeks us rather than us constantly seeking it and trying to make the next spiritual realization happen. You know? Yeah. That's a, a way of seeing things that's really helped me and I really find it is very truthful. Yeah, I, I agree with you and I think, I mean, I know there's a lot of negativity about, well, it, I was talking to Gary, I know he interviewed you. We, we had conversation and I talked about how there's probably more genuine gurus than there are fakes, but the fakes always get the attention. And, uh, and it's such a shame and there's only a few bad apples. And, um, but again, like if we, but I think now we live in a world where the access is incredible. Like you can go on YouTube, you can listen to anyone, and you can, you know, hopefully apply those message. But there is also, there's this, um, word they use in, uh, Hindi. I dunno if it's a Sanskrit word, but they say it's kan-ras. Like you just listening just for the sake of listening. Like, you're not gonna improve your life, but it's just like, oh yeah, I'm going to listen because I, you know, I'm being spiritual if I do. I think the Guru is really, as you mentioned, like kind of transformative you know, that transformation happens when I think you internalize it. Yes, it's important to praise an external guru and have an external guru, but until we internalize it, then the teachings don't really settle. I think if you, for example, if someone just saw Ramana Maharishi's picture and just worshiped that, but didn't worship the. But didn't see, uh, his teachings or his energy within. I don't know if it actually can change you because I, I think that's where Grace comes in, right? Um, and could you go into Grace a little? Now people hardly talk about it.'cause I guess everyone's more intellectually minded. But I do feel grace is really important in the spiritual journey. Could you go into that? yeah, sure. Um, I always a ask people to just see that when, you know, they feel grace is missing or I I want to get grace or achieve it. It, it is just good to even wonder. Um, and notice that like you didn't do anything to bring this, these teachings into your life. All these teachings which have enriched your experience, that have made you wise, that have helped you in the toughest of times. We didn't do anything to find them. They came to us, you know. I always say this like that, that same power that brought the teachings into our life is the same power that's, um, clarifying, purifying, quote unquote, bringing us deeper. You know, I don't think we can create grace, obviously, we can only open ourselves to it by not clinging to the familiar, Mm-Hmm by not clinging to our perception, like our way of perceiving things, our belief systems, mm-Hmm. by, by constantly projecting future in a past. That is the way we, um, that's like impure perception. That that is where grace gets filtered through too many things. And now it appears to not be here. It appears to be missing. But as we start to become more and more empty, more and more silent, more and more aware, we find grace to be that which moves everything, you know? So I always say that like. Everything truly is the movement of grace. Everything is grace in action. Even the teaching coming into your life, the curiosity to pursue it, the desire to practice it, and the results that may or may not come from it. It's all grace. And I, I look at the spiritual path as like what is meant for you is happening in each moment. Simply be like that empty, open vessel through which all this experience is flowing through. You know, it's just coming and going. Be open and empty, accept everything, reject nothing, resist nothing. Live in that manner. And then we find we, we become more receptive to grace. We become more, uh, available to notice it's working and we feel the peace of it. Hmm. So, and the, the more that I, the, the more that I mature in this understanding, the more I see the the need to submit to this grace. Rather than my own opinions about what is right or what is wrong, what is good and what is bad, what I need and what I don't, or even the idea that I can make spiritual progress or realization happen. I think we come to a point in our meditation practices, like we notice our powerlessness to make anything happen, to grow spiritually. And then from that arises devotion, you know, and from that arises, uh, like a total surrender. That is a, that is a beautiful place because then, you know, that's when like the, the, the whole belief in Doership is softening and then Grace is even more available. Yeah. Wow. Wow. That was amazing. That took me on the journey, man. Um, it be really spoke to me actually said, and I think, yeah. Grace is something you have to just be receptive towards. When it does grasp you, it's not gonna let go and you as long as you kind of merge with it. But again, you know, life can bring those obstacles where we don't, so That itself is grace too too. You know, like when we even appear to have fallen off the path, we go through that whole journey and maybe we, let's say we fall off for many months and we go into a state of deep suffering, but through that we come to some sort of learning or discovery, and then we come onto the path more stronger than ever before. So like going through that entire experience of falling off the path like that was only in appearance. You know, if, if anything that is equally as part of the path. As you being on the path, so as you're, you're totally right. Once it finds you, it cannot leave you. Once you're on the path, you cannot escape. As Ramana, Maharshi always says, like, your, your head is already in the tiger's jaws just don't resist. There's no way you escape it, but just stop resisting. Just let it, you know, finish the, the job. That's a good analogy, uh, and a very interesting one. Um, yeah, he, he, he came up with some interesting, I think him like Sri Ramakrishna as well. They had some interesting ways of expressing that non-dual truth, , very beautifully. I mean, it all starts, with obviously the Upanishads and, and so forth. But yeah, they, they had interesting ways of modernizing those examples. So we've kind of, uh, maybe touched upon it, but. I do feel that there are pitfalls that can occur when a seeker goes through the process of self-inquiry. Could you go into what those pitfalls, uh, could be and how can someone try to, I won't say bypass them, but to address them properly, and therefore defeat them in an manner rather than bypassing and then them creeping up later on. I think, uh, one of the greatest pitfalls is chasing an experience through a self-inquiry. You know, so it's like that. So notice how it's a self-enquiry, right? It's a inquiry into the self trying to see what am I. you're trying, it's in simple terms, it's awareness of the subject, Mm. right? The, this meditation is awareness of this subject, but we keep trying to find the subject as an object. We keep thinking that the subject will eventually reveal itself as maybe a, a blissful feeling or a, a, a vision of something. But, so that keeps us stuck because it keeps us waiting for something like a somebody or something. But anything that can be waited for, anything that can come into existence will also go out of existence. And it's not that, which. Is aware of it's coming and going. So that, I'd say that is one of the main pitfalls in self-inquiry is an attachment to an exper, an experience, an expectation for what will happen next. Whereas the very essence of the practice of self-inquiry meditation is becoming free from even the notion next or before. But like, what is the silence that Ramana Maharshi is pointing to? He's pointing to that in which there is no concept of being a somebody with a next, there's no concept of who I am, what life is. There's no, none of these ideas. There's no concept of the, like what role you're playing. There's, there's no concept of any form, no time, no space. It's just when all those things are emptied out, what remains. Hmm Right, just, um, just for the sake of this conversation, we can say j just being, hmm. but we fall into again and again. We keep trying to make being into, into a form, Into an object to keep seeking and then we keep looking outward. So that is a, a power that we have to, um, overcome. And it only happens again and again by like no matter what object you come across in the practice, notice how even that is an experience that comes and goes simply be that which sees it. Once again, bring the awareness of the Seer and, and just rest in that and even in through this practice, if you like, have many amazing, blissful feelings and whatnot. Like, don't get attached to that. You know, I always share it with everybody. Don't get attached to even that. Even that is something that has come and gone. All of these things are very, uh, seductive. They once again pull you outward and they make you attach your sense of self with them. Don't do it. You know, it's like keep returning to the awareness of being, awareness of awareness, awareness of self. Yeah. I would say that's one of the main pitfalls. Interesting. Yeah. I can see that. Think now especially, I dunno if you've noticed this, but there's been a lot of talk about the psychedelics and, and all this. And I wonder, and that's the same thing, they're seeking kind of an experience outer rather than, but they're trying to find themselves, but. It's gonna be objectified. Unfortunately, I, you know, maybe they can be a good gateway, but they, they can't be the answer. someone wants to say it's a gateway., have you had people that will like, come up to you and be like, well, my ayahuasca experience was this, and, you know, and do you feel that people can even deceive themselves into thinking they're experiencing their self, you know, their true self when they're doing these type of things? I think so. I think we can create, I like we, we get hung up on ideas and experiences for sure. And, um, so I don't know. My, my experience on psychedelics is very limited. I mean, my opinion not is very limited because I've never tried it. I never truly felt drawn to it. And what I always share to those who ask about psychedelics is like. Um, if you really, really are desiring to do it, then I mean, try it out. But don't think that is going to be any final answer. You know, don't think that you're going to, like anything you even maybe realize or discover on psychedelics, you will have to ultimately integrate in your experience through spiritual practice. So that's the thing with psychedelics, it may open your mind up to that which is outside of your belief system, but it will never actually, you know, truly help you. Like it helps you in the, in that way maybe that it becomes a catalyst to you wanting to jump into spiritual practice. Um, but other than that, I, I mean, again, my opinion is limited because I have limited knowledge on that, but I don't see how it could, so I, yeah, I, I work with some people who have done and experimented a lot with psychedelics, and then of course they still have to do the practice because I. Anything actually, psychedelics can also be harmful because they, they make you addicted to experience to the next spiritual experience to the, to the next like crazy experience. So that yeah, that's true. Unfortunately, uh, you know, Ramdas tends to be like the poster boy because of the whole LSD experience. But again, uh, he had to let that go once he went to NeemKaroli Baba, and he surrendered there. Right. And actually the, he surrendered. I mean, that was the, that was the real, uh, thing that happened that was larger than the LSD experiences. But yeah, um, I think people Yeah. I'm pretty sure like his guru called him pretty silly for so much time with LSD. I'm sure he did was a journey. But I mean, like, I don't think it needs to be a part of your journey. Certainly, you know, like, so I feel like people who are new to this path, and again, it is all because we want. To realize something and we want it fast. That's also, uh, as you said earlier, right, the teachings are so available to us now. It's a blessing and a curse because I, when I read and hear about the old traditions, like if a disciple really wanted the teaching, especially a teaching as like, um, direct as some of the ones in the Bhagavad Gita or, or even the teachings of self-inquiry, the path of knowledge. Like to even receive those teachings, you had to go through, through like long and arduous period of practice of like, uh, serving, uh, your teacher and everything for years. And because that, like, in that time, it, it dissolved your mental pride. It, uh, helped you become more humble, more open, more available. It increased your devotion and then you receive such a powerful teaching, then you were able to practice. Now it's a blessing that we have all these different teachers and their teachings and, uh, at our disposal, but like. Sometimes we're too immature to even receive it, and so we hear it and, and then we have no, um, desire to really go deeper into it. So yeah, like that, it's like the immaturity that we have to outgrow. yeah. I, you're right. I do think at some point it does become a curse. Like, for example, you know, someone read the Bhagavad Gita and then they'd be like, oh, maybe I should read the Ashtavakra Gita. But, you know, the two are starkly different and you have to be on a different frequency. Like to grasp, like I, I look at the Ashtavakra Gita and I'm like. Man, it's a massive trap. It's getting people into a massive trap. When someone thinks they're ready for it, it can, it can blow them away, like into, or what I mean by that is it can make them go deeper into the ego because all it says, like, you know, I think, I think it's a fifth verse that says, you know, if you think you're liberated, then you know you're liberated. Someone can just go with that and not doing Nisargadatta Maharaj, but kind of go the opposite way and think, well, you know, I'm free and forget all the work that has to go on. And I find that's missing today. Um, when a lot of people aren't, doing the necessary work, as you mentioned, that period of time when they spend time with the, the spiritual friend or, um, the teacher, they're not doing that work. Um, it's, it is literally chasing think what this path just requires is like self-honesty, you know, like, so even let's say you read a text that is totally out of your grasp, because trust me, when I first read the. I thought I was ready, but like it was largely outta my grasp, but I didn't make much of the things that I didn't understand. And when I read stuff like that, like if I didn't feel that way, then I didn't make much of it. And I, I, I was like, Hey, maybe, you know, I, I was totally open to it, that like, this is true. I, I felt that like, hey, these words are true, but what felt more right in my experience is like, okay, I need to practice this. I need to practice. So I just continued with that. So I think as long as we are self-honest, and we're not creating another belief about something, then we, we stay on the right track. I, that's why I like also this practice of, um, self-inquiry really resonated with me because it was, um, it, it made me realize the, the power of concept and it made me realize that like. It's better to be free of all belief rather than try to create new beliefs. And I saw that much of spirituality was trying to do that. It was trying to create new beliefs rather than remove beliefs. So once I started to realize the, that that itself is a pitfall, as you said earlier, like that, even when I started to encounter these things that I didn't make sense and it's like, then I would have to believe that, that, I just, I felt a certain truthfulness in it, but I didn't touch it and I just continued with my practice and I continued, which was learning to become free of all belief. You know, meditation is ultimately learning to let go and become empty of believing or hanging onto any self-identification, even the belief I'm a person or I'm so and so, or the world is this way, like in our, in our meditation we've become empty of all those things. Like that is what all felt so true and powerful to me. And I feel like that has kept me genuine, that has kept me honest. And then I love reading teachings like that, but it's like, then I also love just practicing what is totally resonant right now. Yeah.'cause I love that. But I also love the Bhagavad Gita too. And it's like both have really benefited me and, and both at times have, um, challenged me that like, oh, I don't get this. yeah. Yeah, I think Shri Krishna can be a bit of a, a trickster in many ways but in a good way. In a good way. I really loved what you said about the, the honesty. I think that, I actually put that as a number one quality a seeker should have is For example. It's very easy to, again, get one experience objectify it and think one is like, oh yeah, I'm now free. I am, I am now enlightened. I'm free of the ego. And but to be honest, when you have honesty as your number one kind of principle in spirituality, yeah. You cannot be fooled by your mind as, saying you'd be totally kind of, you'd be totally, uh, transcendent of it, but the mind can't break you down as easily as it would normally. It won't delude you won't fall into, and it won't allow you, you won't be allowed to allow it to lead you astray. Yeah. Yeah. It can't, yeah, it can't take you down a path. You don't wanna, you don't wanna take, uh, or And sometimes like when, when we're honest, then sometimes when even we do go down, maybe what we may consider a wrong path, then as long as we're honest, like our honesty always brings us back to the right track, to a more seamless Right. Quote unquote path. That's what I found. And even like the, the, the detours somehow, like were actually part of your journey. Like they help you also. Yeah, very beautiful. Because I think the same way, like for example, I still don't, well, I've gone to the conclusion that the more I am, I'm reading, the more I'm experiencing is the more I feel how vast the Self is. Therefore, I cannot say, um, I know it completely, or I refuse to say I know it completely. When I spend, say a few months away from spiritual practice, it actually was still there. Maybe in the background. I just didn't, I wasn't actively doing anything. so I do agree like, um. I guess that's grace. You know, it's working there, but you just, we tend to forget it. I wanted to, actually this is a good one because you are a householder. You have a wife and congratulations on that. I mean, I think, I think anyone who has a spouse on the spiritual journey is, it's, um, it's a great way of practising, in my opinion. Your greatest teacher. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so tell me, why didn't you go down the path of being a monk, actually, because this path that you talk about, self-inquiry is mainly done by people that either are alone or or appear alone, and or have become monks. And monks tend to say, you know, become a sannyasi and, you know, they go down that, uh, track. So why did you choose self-inquiry even as a householder? You know, it's funny because a few years ago before I proposed to my now wife, like. I had that big inner battle because I did want to live a sort of a monk's life. I never felt like I wanted to go live in a monastery, but I did feel that like, you know, I don't know if I wanna go down the family route. And I remember even, um, having a conversation with my parents. Uh, I was sitting in their, in their home, and we were just talking about that exactly. I was like, I'm not sure exactly what I wanna do, you know, to tell you the, the truth, like, I only chose this because it just felt more natural. It just felt like this is where my life was headed, and it just felt that I had to try this. You know? It just, I was more inclined towards this and I always felt that like, if it doesn't work out, then, you know, that's always available, but it's like, I don't want to take the Sannyasi route more as an avoidance of regular day-to-day life. I, I never wanted to run away from life. I wanted to face the challenge head-on. Even though I really wanted to go maybe try out that other, that, that, that life, it just maybe at that time didn't feel like the right option to choose at that time. So who knows, like how, like, I mean now, and I noticed like the, my experience of the past few years, um, in, in marriage, like it has been a big challenge, right? Like it teaches you so many things spiritually. It, it, it's harder than most of the things you do in your life. Like, uh, your relationship and it's beautiful in its own right. Like, there's amazing moments, but there's also a lot of challenges. And I feel like those challenges require you to implement all of these teachings in order to go through them without suffering, in order to go through them in a harmonious way. You know, it, I've learned so much on, um, surrender, Mm-Hmm. uh, selfless service. Yeah. Working without attachment. And so who, who says that the other path is better? I really don't think so. I just think it's whatever you are more inclined towards in that moment of that you have to make a decision. Whatever feels most right to you, you just choose Yeah. and, and that's it. Like, and then you just stay open to whatever the future holds. So later on, if that life is meant for me, then we'll see at that time. But right now it seems like God has chosen this journey for me and I'm doing my best to simply, you know, surrender, um, in that way and continue doing my best to implement these teachings in that path. Beautiful. I do say the same thing, like married now, having a kid, has really kind of changed the way I see spirituality and, and, and actually, it's, I also think it's very, and I would say I'm very fortunate, uh, again, this is what I've considered Grace. My wife is very, very, kind of receptive to my journey, very supportive, and, and that helps like if you, if your, uh, other half isn't. it can become a place of conflict, right? If you allow it to be. And I guess, and it also then challenges your spiritual maturity. and then when you have a kid, yeah, that's, I think, yeah, you learn selfless service with your wife, but selfless service with a kid, like, my month old kid. wow. Very recent. yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, trust me, changing the diapers and, uh, getting up in the night and just knowing that the other person is more important than your own self. That is seva that is selfless service. And, uh, you know, we, I think. There's a lot of power in the householder and I, I, I personally, always vouch for it. I'm not saying someone shouldn't be a monk or anything like that. I think I, you know, some of the greatest people I admire are monks. But I think, uh, there's a reason why Sri Krishna was a householder. Why Rama ji was a householder., Raja Janaka was a householder, we have that rich history. But yeah, that's And we feel like we have the choice that we're, you know, that we are may making the choice be householder, but it's, it's, choose chosen for us. uh, it's, it's, I can only imagine like now, especially with, um, with children, like that's going to be a brand new journey for you. So that's wonderful. Um, and I'm looking forward to what comes out of that for you. But I, I love Ramakrishna's teaching. Like to see everybody in your life as a form of God. You know, I really resonated with that teaching. It's like to all your relationships, handling them with care as almost like that is God in form. That has, and it's difficult sometimes, you know, to see that, but to see it in that way. But the more we do that, the more we can, like our, our thought, speech, and action is graceful. The more harmonious it is I've found. And yeah, especially with your closest relationships, sometimes when you like, especially in the challenging moments, that advice really, really helps. yeah, you constantly have to kind of swallow your pride. You can't be as selfish as you probably would do if you were alone. There's lots of things like challenges, uh, the very. You know, kind of, uh, basic things that we look to transcend in spirituality. I think marriage addresses those things, um, or relationships. I found that like marriage, uh, it, it points out and makes you aware of where you are still divisive. So it's like two people coming together and through your experiences together, all that, all where you are still separate arises and it's like working through that, you become more and more one. That's what I felt in the past few years with my wife and I, It's like the challenges that do come up, you know, when they come up it's like, why is this happening? This sucks. It's, you know, it takes so much energy to work through it properly, but the more you do, it's like the more you become one. You know? And so that itself is a union of its own. So it's like outwardly Yeah, you, you're becoming one. And Inwardly you are transcending personal identity. It's so beautiful. That's very true. Like even to see the oneness. When we got married, the person who conducted the marriage ceremony, he said one thing which was very, and it stayed with me. He said that, do not see your in-laws as your in-laws. See them as your own parents and experience that oneness because the moment you say, this is my in-laws, and these are my parents. Once you have that difference, you can't have that closeness. And from that, you know, obviously it's given on the day of marriage, you kind of want to practice that. And it's very true. Like I see Manisha's parents as my own and, uh, and, I think, and yeah, it takes away that separation that you would normally have, um, I didn't have these teachings, uh, in my life, you know? And yeah, if you operate from oneness and it'd be more, we'd live in a better society and a better world. But, uh, that's, that's But us on the spiritual path, we are, we are ourselves. Like that beacon of light in a world full of darkness. Truly. I believe that, and I share that with everybody who is seriously taking up spiritual practice. Like it, it won't be easy. And you know, it's like you won't get away with the things that other people get away with. Meaning like other people can complain and moan and groan and like. They don't know any better, but it's like now you do, you know, people may hurt you not knowing any better, but you know better now. And the way is not revenge or retaliation, right? Like you have to be the light which absorbs all that darkness and does not, you know, propagate it. Wow. and as you, as we do, we feel like, oh, our light will dim. But actually the more we absorb darkness, like the more our light grows. And it's like a transformation within yourself. But it's also like you start to see the transformation in the people around you as well. You start, you start to feel the transformation in your experience and how you experience the world. yeah, yeah. Absolutely. That's, I really like that. The more darkness you take in, the more light engulfs you and surrounds you. That's very interesting. So you mentioned God, a lot of people tend to stay away from that word, I used to but now I'm kind of getting okay with it. How you with, uh, that word? I know that Brahman cannot be translated as God or even the Self, the Atman cannot be called God. Have you always been, because I think I remember you saying I could be wrong, um, that you're kind of agnostic or atheist type or materialist, that was it materialist in your outlook? But are you okay now with the word God and or have you always been okay with it and I love the word now. God. it all the time. And actually sometimes, like if I use it in a talk, and it may be trigger someone, or maybe someone doesn't like it, I don't just let them get away with it. I actually ask them to investigate why you have such an attachment to the word and like Yeah. you, and you discover that like, hey, because you're personifying it to be something that it's not. You're, you're like making it into something that you have believed in the past, but through these teachings, like our understanding of that, um, like becomes purified, truly. And I know, so I love the word God. Um, before, yeah, when I said, like before I came across these teachings, it's not that I was like atheist or anything, but uh, I was, I was more materialist, right? Like my, my entire focus was just in experience and what I can gain from experience. And I grew up in a Hindu household, so being all around pujas and all like prayers and everything. Um, and all these different gods for so many, uh, years, but because I never understood them, I never understood the essence of our religion. Like I, that's why I didn't care much for it. And I, I just, because I didn't understand it, I thought it was just like, you know, another philosophy, whatever. Um, but yeah, so I was never against the word God. But as I've matured in my meditation practice, not only have I started to understand the essence of the religion I was raised in and many other religions as well, but also I've become much more comfortable with this word and I love it. yeah. Good, good, good. Yeah, no, I, I, I like that. And I felt that before, I didn't wanna say it because I was dealing with my own, 'cause I think growing up in the West like growing up in England, I felt, like I went to a school that was like kind of Christian and, and then you, you go to your Sunday Satsang and they're talking about the formless. It's like two, they're, they are the two, they're very contrasting philosophies, uh, on the appearance. And now you can see the underlying oneness. But Are you Sikh or Hindu? I go to the Nirankari Satsang, which is an offshoot from Sikhism. But, uh, my, my grandparents, uh, before they joined the movement, they were Hindu. At Satsang we were taught that, uh, you know, God is nirakar, it's formless. Then at school you're like, you know, the teacher's like bigging up a God that you can, that has a personification of some sort. And that brought a lot of conflict. But as I grew up, I went to university then I went through this whole atheist phase and, and then now it's like, for a long time I've been refusing. And even when I started the podcast, I refused to say the word God. But I don't know, in the past, like six, seven months, I've just been finding myself at ease with it. And I dunno how it happened. But it just, I'm like, yeah, I, I know what God, like the way I'm describing God, I know what it is, so I don't need to be uncomfortable with it. You totally. But yes, what I do do is when somebody says something about God, I do like to ask them how do they see God and get to know where they're coming from. So I think that's probably changed a bit. Like I would probably challenge a bit more what people will mean by that word, by that name, shall I say, and what, how they see it. But yeah, it's nice to know that you are good with it and you love it. I think that's a natural thing too. Do you feel that sometimes, especially with the path of self-inquiry, that it can become dry? Right. And I think when you use words like God or say Brahman or or the Isht-devta of any sort, or Ishvara, do you feel like it brings a closeness, which you won't get with just the Nirguna aspect, with the Attributeless aspect. Yeah, very good question. I feel I felt that in my experience, um, because in the, in the, in the beginning, I was only self-enquiry meditation, right? That focus on that. And although that is still the main foundation, I would say, of my entire practice, I found that. It sometimes can like, uh, become dry, right? And to solve that, I feel like just when you start hitting that wall in self-inquiry or in meditation, a natural devotion starts to spring up because you, you start to, as I said earlier, like you, you start to realize your own Hmm. and it's like a, a natural devotion starts pouring out, you know? And so then from that comes prayer, surrender, devotion to God. And yeah, so that's like, um, and I, and I'm trying to remember the quote by Hanuman. He said something along the lines of, when I take myself to be a person, you know, I'm your servant. When I know myself to be the soul I am, your a spark of your divine light and. I forget the third one, but he said, when I, when I, I think when he fully, when he is fully when know myself as like the eternal, I am one with you. You know? So it's like we can play the role of like devotion to even an external God or like, um, like personifying God or into a figure that that's totally fine. Or worshiping the Formless right. And also practice the meditation at the same time. And I think prayer, devotion, bhakti, it brings a certain softness in us, in certain love, um, great devotion. And it also then opens doors in meditation, which then only strength and devotion. So it's like a feedback loop. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's true. Uh, I like that. Yeah. And, and do you find that so you know, the majority that join your academy, do they get introduced to the devotional aspects earlier on, or is it more when you felt they've matured, then you kind of introduce devotion so it's in so they know what they're devoted to rather than having an I idea or concept of being devoted to something. So we do a, we do a ten-week course, right in week four. They, uh, we focus on surrender, surrender devotion until week four, we do the fundamentals of self-inquiry and deepening our practice building that foundation. Week four is where we, uh, cover surrender, because like you start to notice also that surrender and devotion is so necessary. Let's talk about surrender, especially like if we are constantly attached to the person that I am and my future, what must happen and what must not happen, that is what creates the restlessness in the mind. No matter how much meditation you do, until you start to surrender, your mind will remain restless because it is under the impression that I am a someone that needs to secure my future, and this must happen and this cannot happen. That is the source of restlessness. Once we start to surrender, once we start to become open to however the future may, may arise, as being open to whatever may come, whatever may go, once that acceptance and surrender starts to brew within us, then whatever the mind says, like how can it hook into you? It needs someone to hook into. It needs someone to be deeply invested in some future to hook into. So surrender naturally dissolves the restlessness of mind, which makes inquiry easier. The more inquiry meditation becomes simpler and deeper, the stronger and more established we become in surrender. So they're like two sides of the same thing. Um, so yeah, we week four and then week nine as well. So we do one week on surrender first, and then we once again get back into the principles of inquiry. Then later on, once again, this theme comes in because truly they both have to be practiced together. You, you can, you cannot just, you know, just do that and perhaps you can. But, um, the sort of the approach that I've experienced and what I share is like we do them together. Very beautiful. And Sri Krishna more or less, says the same thing that Gyan and Bhakti are, you know, two wings of a bird. You need them both, in order to progress. I do feel like once you, yeah, when you have that Gyan, the knowledge of the self, only then is your devotion then pointed towards something. Otherwise. I say that when you're devoted without Gyan. It's, it can become blind faith, it can become delusional. It can uh, it can have no, um, focus point. And, there is no stabilization going on, that's required. So yeah, it's very, uh, I love that you have that incorporated in your course. I mean, that's And Bhagavad Gita was one of the, um, main texts that helped me develop that also. And, you know, when I first read the Gita, I mean, that was a, a long time ago, but like when I revisited it after I came across these teachings, I thought it was a, I had, I had remembered it to be just a text on Karma yoga, just like selfless action. But then when I read it, like it covers all paths and it, it was so beautiful to see how like, uh, the way that it proposes to live, it's like it's a culmination of all paths. And so that's where I really saw the importance of it as well. And it just felt like a natural transition into it. Beautiful. We're getting to the end of the podcast, it has not felt like an hour. I really could speak to you for a longer time. And, um, um, but as we're, as we're wrapping up, obviously there's gonna be a lot of my, listeners, they're gonna be coming across you for the first time., and I actually would say do check out. I want them to check out your academy. And I would love for them to try it out and, because there's a lot I feel they can grasp from it. So yeah, I'm not you by the way, this is not a paid sponsorship, but like, uh, but, but yeah, I do, I do genuinely feel from what you've described today and and even what I've listened to you on YouTube. I feel like the academy would be a good step for a lot of people, for a lot of my listeners. But wrapping up, um, it, you know, as someone starting the spiritual path that's gone onto YouTube and there's, you know, numerous things they can listen to, what's the one advice would you give them to bring focus and clarity as they seek out, spiritual, liberation? Mm-Hmm. Yeah, I would say that again, self-honesty and resonance. Like be very, pay, very close attention to your resonance. So let, yeah. Let's first talk about resonance. You are meant to be practicing what you resonate with the most and what feels most natural to you. That doesn't mean that it won't be challenging, but the desire to practice that will be there and the energy to move through those, those, the through those obstacles will be there. Um, I feel like we should always keep a teaching around us. And usually it's like that, that there's a teaching in our experience, which we don't yet grasp, that we're like, sort of trying to claw up at. There's a teach, there's a teaching that does make sense. The teaching that does make sense. We have to do our best to practice it. We have to do our best to absolutely embody it in our daily life. And I, I actually recommend having, almost like you, of course, you want to discern if the teaching is, it feels true or not, but if it feels true, you trust that teaching more than you trust your own mind's. Doubts. If it doesn't feel true, throw it in the trash and run away from it. Forget But if it feels true. Then you trust that feeling more than you trust your own mind's. Doubts and resistances and fears about it have nothing to lose. I always say like, go all in on the teaching. That feels truth. Like go in the direction that feels truthful because that truly is life leading you. That is grace in action. And so as we do that, as we follow the path of our resonance, as we embody the teaching that we do understand, we begin to naturally like be, uh, pulled upwards into that which we previously didn't understand. but now we just, it just starts to click out of nowhere, you know? And throughout this path, just be honest, because the mind does lie to you. The mind says all these things and the mind is very scattered in its, um, priorities. The mind wants truth, but it also wants this pleasure and that pleasure.. We must do our best on this path to refine our priorities. What is it that we truly want? If you do find that like, oh no, but you still prioritize this pleasure and that pleasure, then okay, go have that pleasure. But while you are doing it, don't just do it blindly. Don't just do it unconsciously. Hmm. Chase experience. If you want, chase money, if you want, but as you are going about it, be honest with yourself and see if it worked. Hmm You know, see if you, the desires that you were so attached to when they've become fulfilled, did it make you happy? it dissolve your restless mind? Did it stop making you fearful? Or something like that, you know, and like you learn from that. So follow the path of resonance. Uh, go wherever this life takes you and just be honest. Observe. And from that just naturally comes spiritual growth. Our desires themselves become more and more refined, purified until the main thing we want is now just truth and everything else is like, of course, personally it's important that I get this or that, but like it's superficial. It's not really ultimately a condition on my happiness. You know, personally, we'll always be moving towards something, this and that, but it's like that doesn't hold the utmost importance anymore. The utmost priority, if anything, that is like the path through which we uncover these spiritual truths. Yeah. Wow. Beautiful. Thank you Sunny, uh, for one being gracious with your time and, for guiding us and teaching us a lot in this episode, I feel like I've grasped a lot of things, a lot of perspectives, which I haven't thought about before. And, , and I hope that the listeners also grasp, the teachings and, , and they understand that the practice can be easier when you have that honesty and that you resonate with, uh, as well. So, thank you for being here. Thank you for blessing us and, we uh, thank you and we, we have to have you on again. I think, um, I had a few more questions and I'm like, I'm gonna ask them for the next time because, it's, yeah, a lot of people need to know your message and. It's, it's worth. And I think these conversations, they kind of bring a personality at which I think sometimes videos don't give, or they show the person, uh, behind the, the majestic teachings and, and um, thank you. It is a pleasure and , I hope to see you again podcast. absolutely. Um, it was a pleasure being on here. Thank you for having me, and I'm wishing you the best of luck, uh, as well with your new endeavor, with your newborn. Um, so thank you again. Thank you. Thank you.